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EgyptAir flight 804 from Paris to Cairo disappears from radar

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An EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo disappeared from radar Thursday morning, according to multiple news accounts citing the airline. Flight 804 had 59 passengers and 10 crew aboard. According to Sky News Arabia, the plane was last detected in the skies over Greece, about 40 minutes from Athens. (www.washingtontimes.com) 更多...

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jhwenger
jhwenger 17
New info coming out indicates that a fire in the electronics bay may have disabled the A/C. These message time-stamps seem to be coincident with the cessation of ADS-B transmissions.

"On May 20th 2016 The Aviation Herald received information from three independent channels, that ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) messages with following content were received from the aircraft:

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
no further ACARS messages were received"

If you remember previous Airbus fire pictures the main electrical buses, relays and really big circuit breakers are right under the first officers seat. Exactly what the ACARS messages indicate. They probably had no radios and ultimately lost all the flight control computers.
johnmccabe
John McCabe 4
Thanks! - It's good to get information instead of speculation...
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
An FAA Inspector with experience investigating this A320 cockpit window lamination issue gave an interview this morning in which he believes that the evidence and his intuition from prior experience with the issue is that it is leaning more toward mechanical failure rather than act of terrorism, which is what he and most might've believed initially given the sudden catastrophic failure at altitude.

He basically said that the window comes apart over time and the gold laminate between the layers of window drops down and forms a capacitor-like structure that holds electrical charge and can lead to overheating of window and possible cause an electrical fire, etc.

I tried to find links about this, but didn't find anything directly addressing the issue.

I did find this old story, which I'll share, about a couple of pilots who found themselves at the pointy end of an A320 full of passengers, without coms and with blank nav screens in the crowded NYC airspace. In that instance they turned around and landed back at Newark without being able to coordinate with ATC tower and without being able to see other aircraft except with their eyeballs. Luckily it was daylight with clear weather.

http://www.denverpost.com/2012/08/22/airbus-a320s-cockpit-problems-continue-since-faa-order/
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
A lot of cockpit windows have that issue... We in maintenance keep a close look at that. I have seen some that they determinate so bad that they have to be repaired at out stations. This does not happen often, sometimes we can ferry pressurized, and sometimes we have to ferry unpressurized and a few the plane is AOG.
amocsi
Amoc Sivunna 1
OK. Interesting informations. Anyway we'll know more from the flight recorder results.

[This poster has been suspended.]

w7psk
Ricky Scott 8
Yes flight Recorders, In fact I was in the Flight Recorder group at Boeing. Do you have some expertise in Designing them and what they are called ?

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sparkie624
sparkie624 5
The 2 basic boxes known as the "Black Boxes" which ironically are the only 2 boxes on the plane that are not black and are actually bright orange with Red Stripes in most cases. The CVR is audio from the "Cockpit Voice Recorder" and records all of the sounds in the cockpit from multiple sources and channels (similar to stereo or surround). The FDR (Flight Data Recorder) or now days known as the DFDR (Digital Flight Data Recorder) and picks up from sensor and switch positions, messages, and all sorts of info including flight control position, commanded position, Engine Settings, and Engine run parameters and much more that can be downloaded to a computer to be plotted or rebuilt. The CVR and DFDR are also linked via a data bus to sync time so that the voice track on most can be linked to the digital data to give a real time audio vs a/c actions.

This type would be on most 121 a/c as well as a lot of 145 (depending on size). In reality it could be installed in any FAA class even 91 depending on the a/c size and configuration. Sometimes required, sometimes not.

No the CVR and FDR/DFDR only track its own plane, not any other planes in close proximity, but some data from the TCAS may be logged to the DFDR in the form of TA or RA alerts for close traffic and commands to the flight crew (Climb or Decent)

I hope this answers your questions.
williambaker08
william baker 6
Don't edge Hartmann on. He's just looking for attention that among other things. Lo. Rest in peace off all Aboard EgyptAir 804. May we find the truth and come up with a solution for it to never happen again.
williambaker08
william baker 3
Sorry Lo. Is Lol

[This poster has been suspended.]

rapidwolve
rapidwolve 15
The only thing wasting people's time is the shackababble coming from your fingers...I, for 1, listen to the opinion of others and if I don't agree or understand, I engage them about it...you, on the other hand, come on here like you are king of pilots and aviation and no one else is suppose to comment...you asked a question, it was answered, very well I might add, and you proceeded to be a jerk...this is not the time, nor place, for idiots like you so take your holier than thou attitude and stuff it...my apologies if I have offended anyone, not including Hartmann Esq.
williambaker08
william baker 3
Amen. Well said rapidwolve. Thank you

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allench1
allench1 6
This is both a site for factual information as sparkie624 and high time experienced pilots as myself and our lost brother preacher1 ( Wayne Bookout ) and those that submit their thoughts to move the conversation forward. This is both a factual site and a conversation site for those who try to bring their thoughts on a crash before the facts emerge.One more fact: you are new to this site whereas sparkie624,myself among others have been here for many years, so tame your arrogance, but that must be hard for an Esq. of ????
sparkie624
sparkie624 5
preacher1, Wings flying higher than ever before... Rest In Peace! He is highly missed here and as a great personal friend.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
Preacher1 is truly missed.

[This poster has been suspended.]

Oval
Olav Neiuwejaar 4
"There are plenty of public chat rooms where those who have a need to express their OPINIONS," says the person who has registered more opinions on this thread than any other person. "Hopefully, good manners will prevail" and he will end his little game.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 2
We should all remember this important advice: "Don't feed the troll!" I'm certain preacher would agree with me.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
In case you have not figured out out, Preacher is now Flying at Flight Level Unlimited, He was probably one of the most influential person in the forms and was respected by all... I am not sure what he would have said to you, but I assure you it would have been fitting and at the exact right time....

Rest in Peach my Good Friend.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
I think you replied to a brick wall, sparlie...The more I learn about who Preacher was, the more I can understand how and why he was so well liked and respected in here.

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 7
To my recollection, the Reverend Mr. Bookout aka Preacher1 expressed on opinions on a wide range of subjects, not all of which he had in-depth technical expertise. He opinions were mainly thoughtful, well-considered and mostly respectful of the other posters. He did occasionally provide a slap-up-the-side-of-the-head when warranted. I believe he gave a couple of them to you.

Should you have any interest to do so, you are welcome to peruse the comments posted by Preacher1. All squawk comments are retained by Flightaware and are available by doing a right click on the poster's id.

As for your question supposing the reason this '"Preacher" fellow' was regarded and posing the question "Discuss, please?", that is, in my opinion, way of the topic of the current thread.

Your consistent and continued comments seem to fit the definition of diatribe. For example. here is an excerpt from one of your earlier posts taken from the Flightware squawk history:

The operators of this forum may wish to consider some mechanism to limit these comments to legimiate flight crew. I am not clear how either the REAL aviation community, or this form of communication, benefits from the spurious comments of people who clearly are not pilots - simply "wanna-be's" who feel a need to intrude with silly comments into a technical area beyond their comprehension.
(Written on 01/09/2013)

G'day
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
In Regards to your comment: "The operators of this forum may wish to consider some mechanism to limit these comments to legimiate flight crew." --- Well that would certainly kick me out and I have been pounding this site for over 7 years now. But I do know what you are saying.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
The last para should have been in quotes as it was a comment Mr. Hartmann posted 3 years ago.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Sorry Joel..I do know what you maen and are saying..I do go off sometimes on these "trolls" and I realize I shouldnt.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Sometimes I forget "least said, soonest mended"
allench1
allench1 1
Ya, I flew up from KDTS to see him a few months before his final flight and unless i'm wrong i think he told me you had come to see him as well, but I could be wrong as I am getting up in years, born in 45.
sparkie624
sparkie624 5
Yeah... We only lived a few hours from each other... A good person to say the least... It seemed like he knew what to say and when to say it and it was always perfectly timed.
allench1
allench1 3
ya I bring him up when I can to honer his life so he is not forgotten.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
A special thanks to yourself and sparkie for honoring preacher1 as you do...I did not know him long but feel as thou he was a HUGE part of a great many in here..I salute to you preacher1.

[This poster has been suspended.]

WeatherWise
WeatherWise 7
What gives you the right to declare who is a "wanna be" on this site? You don't know anything about me or most of the folks here, for that matter. How does anyone know the qualifications of ANYONE posting here? Anybody can type in any pilot rating they want when they sign up. You don't engage in discussion, you actively seek confrontation, so as far as I'm concerned, pilot or not, that makes you a troll. Try behaving like a normal human being and less like a cranky old workman's comp lawyer.

[This poster has been suspended.]

MikeR78
Mike Reimer 10
"BUT PLEASE DONT CLUTTER UP THIS PARTICULAR SITE WITH 'OPINIONS'" Says the poster who has just posted his "opinions" on the subject no fewer than 10 times in this thread alone. LMAO Peter
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 7
So you are saying YOUR behavior on here would be considered GOOD MANNERS??? You've done nothing but ridicule members on here. You are basically saying anyone posting on here who isn't pilot rated or an expert on the subject at hand should "go elsewhere"? This is a forum for open discussion on aviation related topics, for anyone who joins FA. And gee, Esq., so sorry that some of us aren't aviation experts like you. This is a post about an air crash. Should we ban everyone who isn't an NTSB investigator from commenting? You say you're not qualified to discuss this incident but yet this comment section is full of your insults and condescending remarks. Here's some "reading comprehension" for you: How about YOU go find a chat room and "venture an opinion" as to why people don't like you. You liked "Preacher"? THEN TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE AND BE LIKE HIM!
sparkie624
sparkie624 6
To be honest... We have very few negative conversations here. On occasion I know I have gone off the deep end, gotten flamed here, and be brought down by Preacher1 (RIP). We usually have good open discussions, but keep in mind that most of us are discussion theories and try to figure out what is going on, not necessarily trying to figure what equipment is on board, or other similar items. It is more open discussion of different views of what happened and hopefully we as professionals can learn from them and not make those mistakes... Sometimes as we have seen from Eastern 401, even 1 small light bulb not working can cost the lives of hundreds of people and that is no exaggeration. That is why CRM was instigated across the US and I hope that EVERY AIRLINE CREW MEMBER here uses it everytime they fly... (Especially when I am flying on board, or they are flying over my head :)...)

Just my opinion, and the regulars know that I share many of them.... UGH.. time for the flaming to start :)
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
Keep on doing exactly what you do sparkie..I obtain a good deal of info from your posts and appreciate it
whip5209
Ken McIntyre 7
Well, Peter...
Why are you so condescending? Not everyone on here is an "expert", me included. But, I did have 5 1/2 years of airline ground experience in the late 80s for a large regional carrier. Was weather qualified and on the emergency first response team.
Just because a person is not a 30 year "left seater" doesn't mean that they can't be interested and contribute. (I miss preacher)
As for the fans, let them be. They are trying to learn something. For trolls, give it up. They are everywhere and you'd better grow a thick hide. Ignore them both if you can't stand them.
This is a public forum. At least that was what I was led to believe.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
The location and progression seams to point to the FO location. Could it have started with a spilled cup of coffee or is the area well protected from liquid contamination? The crew may not have been able to make a distress call because voice comm radios may have been taken out before the ACARS messages started.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Not very likely. Keep in mid if in fact the FO had done this the captain still has his side which is totally seperate. Keep in mind that there are 2 or more of all critical systems... 2 Navs, 2 Comms, 2 AHRS or IRS or INS systems, etc, etc, ... and each side gets power from its own side as there are also 2 generators and so forth... If the FO did do this, it would have only affect equipment on his side and not to mention there are backup systems as well.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Thanks sparks. I don't know the aircraft and was thinking more along the lines that a common area existed there where all the buses or main feeder bus could be affected.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
As far as tbe bussing goes, there is no common area so to speak.... The FO's equipment is on the FO's side and the Captains side is on his side!. The Center console is split and almost nothing is shared. The only sharing really and varies between fleets is the Door Lock, Radar Control Panel, Throttles, Yaw Dampner, and a few other things. Over head panels are different. They are departmental, in other words bleed control is on the bleed panel, Air Conditioning is on the its own, and the same for the Electrical, Hydraulic, lighting and other systems.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Well, we have some knowns of what was happening on board and I am just fishing for the two biggest unknowns. What started the sequence of events and why no communications from the crew.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Just remember... When ever you are flying a plane... the first and foremost concern and priority is to "FLY THE PLAN".. communications is somewhere down the lines... they may not have had time to send a message. -
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Very true. I just can't think of another instance not related to a planned attack where the crew didn't communicate at least once. Even ValueJet and SwissAir crews communicated. The onset was very rapid even to the extent of an incendiary device in the cockpit. With still no claims of responsibility, we will just have to wait and see.
williambaker08
william baker 1
Well with Swiss air and valujet the pilots had time to send a message to atc. Thy both flew more then ten minutes after the fires started. This aircraft depending on the if it was a fire and when it started went basically down to the ground in a few mintues. If it had stayed together they were probably fighting to control the jet and bring it back to level flight rather then call atc which again both valujet and Swiss air had time for because neither jet took a plunge at first. But time will tell what happen to this aircraft and we will find a solution to the issue and pray it never happens again.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Also keep in Mind Eastern 401 that they did not have time to contact ATC, all because of one Burnt Out Light bulb, which is the Primary Reason for the development or CRM in the Cockpit. One analogy that no one thought about. Maybe both crew members got so involved with Troubleshooting the aircraft that they forgot the one key point of there job.... "FLYING THE PLANE". We know there was several smoke alarms... Just supposed they were trying to find the source so bad that forgot while they were there... Keep in mind the unexplained movements... One tight turn followed by the circle down. Suppose they both were troubleshooting depending on ole Fred to fly knocking him off line and by the time they realized what was going on it was too late... I would also like to Reference that the strict cockpit policies in the US and the US Training, it is not necessarily true over sees with less stricter procedures... With that the perfect example would be "KLM Flight 4805" who began its take off roll without departure clearance and the FO did not challenge him and thus causing the worst kind of runway incursion with Pan Am Flight 1736... I think most here could remember that scenario.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
For those of us who remember, it is one thing: someone born that day is 39. There are a couple of generations now that might benefit from looking into those events. Mr. Hartmann suggests 'listening' and many topics for research can be found in some of these squawks.
PLANESOLUTIONS
PLANESOLUTIONS 0
I'd add that is depends on what the plan is. Only fly the plan if it makes sense!
glenkrc
glen krc 1
Also interesting is MSR803, which has a recent history identical to that of 804 (i.e., consistent use of 737-800, except on May 18). 803 arrived at CDG from Cairo about 90 minutes prior to 804's departure from CDG, leading to the strong possibility that the A320 was the same aircraft - and evidently a substitute aircraft - for both flights. The essential conclusion is that the substitution of the A320 for the 737-800 did not occur at CDG, but in Cairo (or earlier point of origin).

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MSR803/history/20160518/1450Z/HECA/LFPG
vanstaalduinenj
Jon Van Staalduinen 18
Cruising altitude
Reliable airliner
Decent carrier

I dont like where this is going....
Don't want to throw out the "T" word quite yet....
But realistically....has to be number 1 suspect at this point
Water temperature would allow for a window of survivability.
Thoughts and prayers....
tartarus12
Robert Curley -1
This wouldn't be the first time an EgyptAir flight was deliberately flown into the sea.
imtxsmoke
Jeffrey Bue 0
williambaker08
william baker -2
Egypt Air 990 was flown into the ocean not the Sea folks lol.
murrayhill3
Jim Murray 9
One day the black box will be pulled from the depths of the Med Sea and we will know.
utahcamera
Tim Smith 2
It will be nice when the commercial air fleet is equipped with black boxes that float. The military has had them for years.
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-airbus-to-equip-long-haul-jets-with-floatable-black-boxes-2015-1

[This poster has been suspended.]

w7psk
Ricky Scott 8
Peter you are well aware they are commonly called black boxes even though they are painted international Orange. We whom designed the systems called them black boxes, so dont be so arrogant.

And yes, I designed the specifications and integration of the Flight Data Recorder systems for 737, 747, 757, 767, and 777 aircraft. Just so you are thinking about pulling one of your holier than thou attitudes.
allench1
allench1 1
WELL said Ricky,well said.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
See my message above.

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Oval
Olav Neiuwejaar 3
You really are quite the asshole, Petes. Maybe you should hang it up.
sparkie624
sparkie624 8
Just my view, I think this was maintenance related to pressurization and too many cycles... I think just like Aloha Airlines 247 and Japan Airlines Flight 123 with the Aft pressure bulk head blowing out. It appears that they were partially able to control the aircraft, but was too much as the start of the decent appeared controlled based on radar data. I think that if this was a bomb that we would have seen a much more radical flight path. Keep in mind that the A320's are old and the first came out in the mid/late 80's and the fact that over seas they have much less strick rules on inspections and cycles. Many times when a plane is cycle or timed out in the US that same plane is shipped over seas and continues revenue flights.

Just my opinion.. .Don't blast me too bad please! I have been a working on these type of a/c since about when this model came out.. and wow that makes me feel old. :)
ayebee
Ivan Blakely 2
SU-GCC (MSN 2088) first flight was July 2003. Is that old?
Don't know the number of cycles, but the production list shows many older aircraft active with first tier airlines, including Delta, United, BA, Finnair, Air New Zealand, Qatar, Iberia, Austrian, Swiss, American, the list goes on.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 4
I looked at multiple sites I think you may be right ...the plane was only 12.8 years old.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 2
Depends on whether or not ownership ever changed hands...It may have operated for years under another registration number before being sold to the current carrier.
whip5209
Ken McIntyre 1
Doesn't sound too far fetched to me.
jahdplanb
Gerald Anderson 1
If that's the case, the rules on aircraft should be world wide and the practice of selling aircraft overseas , then do they monitor anything close to our standards?
mdlacey
Matt Lacey 1
Japan 123 was a misperformed repair or retrofit. It wasn't too many cycles. There was a doubler that was connected to nothing on the other side. I saw an AIAA pitch a few years ago from one of the investigators that showed a drawing of the error.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Very true... But who is to say that something similar did not happen. they have not gone through the aircraft records yet. We do not know what kind of repairs it was.

Also, with the news all the smoke warnings, it is really now looking like an electrical related problem based on new evidence released from ACARS data.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Sad thing about that one is i believe that bulk head repair was actually signed off on by an inspector.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
The repair was preformed by Boeing and inspected and signed off by a Boeing and Japan Airlines Inspector.
JonathanDavis
Jonathan Davis 6
Hopes and prayers.
lancaster12344
Casey Samnek 6
Crashes are never easy to digest for me. What was going through their minds, what happened, what did it feel like. Let's hope they find out soon.
canuck44
canuck44 4
Why would an A329 have a crew of 10 for 59 passengers...was there a second crew dead heading back to Cairo?
watkinssusan
mary susan watkins 2
this was clarified....news reports called three security officers (our equivalent of air marshalls)in the count of 10 crew..
elsegundo
Rob Jose 2
EgyptAir says 3 of the 10 were security personnel. The 7 remaining is still a lot. Maybe 2 flying, 3 cabin crew, and 2 dead-heading?

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

lyonstom2003
Tom Lyons 3
It might have a bearing if one of the crew was complicit.
bbabis
Bill Babis 4
If this turns out to be terrorism, a complicant crewmember with a bomb in the cockpit would explain many of the unknowns. May God comfort all invoved and send the perpetrators to burn in hell.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 1
And so once again, the idiot speaks.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

WeatherWise
WeatherWise 3
Wow, your first ever comment on FA. Congrats!
sanderscleveland
Sanders Cleveland 6
Why does FA show it as a 737-800 but news says its an A320?
temukukiwi
temukukiwi 3
Yes it's one of there A320 aircraft it was on FLIGHTAWARE and Flightradar24 not a BOEING 737
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
That route is normally served by a 737-800 but this particular day it was an A320..my thoughts and prayers go to all the family members and friends of all involved
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
The plane planned was probably AOG somewhere and instead of substituting one of there own planes, they may have contracted this flight to another carrier.
temukukiwi
temukukiwi 3
http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/05/19/14/02/an-egyptair-flight-with-69-people-on-board-has-disappeared-from-radar
TBCA
EgyptAir has confirmed flight MS804 was carrying 59 passengers and 10 crew when it vanished from radar this morning.

EgyptAir said on its Twitter account it is in the process of dispatching rescue crews.

MS804 was flying at 37,000 feet when it disappeared at 2.45am Cairo time (10.45am AEST), EgyptAir said.

"An informed source at EGYPTAIR stated that Flight no MS804, which departed Paris at 23:09 (CEST), heading to Cairo has disappeared from radar," the airline said in press release.

"EGYPTAIR media centre will update as more information becomes available."


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/05/19/14/02/an-egyptair-flight-with-69-people-on-board-has-disappeared-from-radar#7Sqe8XZpr2CS0q3b.99
ColinSeftel
Colin Seftel 3
Wreckage has been found on Friday, 180 miles (290 kilometers) north of Alexandria, according to a statement from the Egyptian military. This follows an erroneous report of wreckage south of Crete on Thursday.
See http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/20/middleeast/egyptair-flight-804-main/
jeffforber
jeff forber 3
It looks like my flightfeeder and piaware picked up the last minutes of his flight see link ...........http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MSR804/history/20160518/2045Z/LFPG/HECA/tracklog
rob43153
Robert Wells 3
Via CNBC, Egypt air is reporting that the a320 HAS crashed. Search aircraft have spotted aircraft parts floating in the sea. This aircraft was put in service in 2003 & CNBC has shown the actual aircraft file photo. Thoughts & prayers for the families of those lost.
ColinSeftel
Colin Seftel 3
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
This is great news, but by reading the article, FInding them is one thing.. Getting to them may be a totally different subject as they are being listed as being as much as 10000 feet deep,and keep in mind it may be a recorder and not recorders! so we may have one or the other... Hopefully it turns out to have both in very close proximity, but that is usually not the case.
w7psk
Ricky Scott 1
I don't know how Airbus does it but on Boeing they are next to each other in the rear of the aircraft. Hopefully they will be near each other. EAR data requirements are similar to FAA but there should be enough on the modern FDR and CVR to point them in the right direction. Avionics bay parts would be a plus.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Some Boeings have 1 in the tail and the CVR up front.
w7psk
Ricky Scott 1
Rog, The ones I worked on we downloaded data out of the rear near the tail. CVR may be up front, never really payed attention a lot of times. To busy trying to get my FDR data downloaded after a test :).
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You are exactly correct, all that I am saying is that some of them are moving them to the front. I do not know the reason for this. Personally I think they should be in the back.
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 1
Just speculating but by separating them you increase the chance at least some of the data survives or is found. Say for instance they happen to find the FWD fuselage sections of the missing Malaysian aircraft. If both boxes are in the back then all the data is still lost to us.
Cadefoster
Cade foster 3
What is this doing on the Main FlighAware page like it just happened? Maybe a date or something in the Title/Heading. Thought Egypt Air had just lost another plane.
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 3
I wondered the same thing! FlightAware Squawk glitch?
hatch
ian hatch 2
the graphs of altitude and speed correlate with the ADS-B data - neither show a change of heading or rapid descent - did the ADS-B data get truncated on Flightaware or did it cease suddenly
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Last track entry was at 33.7/ 28.8 from LTFG. FA shows 4 feeders on Cyprus. Wonder if any of them picked up anything.
rideclickcode
ride click 2
Would a rudder hard over exhibit the same flight path?
jkatten
Jeff Katten 2
Just a comment about the potential for a Volcanic Ash incident. Have a look at http://www.meteo.fr/vaac/archives/ETNA/e.20160519061200.ETNA.201611.201605190600.html It appears that another A320 reported volcanic ash at FL360 roughly 3 hours after the accident aircraft lost radar contact. Has anyone heard any other reports that may indicate that Ash from Mt. Etna may have been a factor? Is there the potential that there was physical damage to radio antennas and pitot tubes?
cldis
Claude DIS 2
This is what was spotted Wednesday by the International Space Station :

https://www.facebook.com/NASAAstronautJeffWilliams/photos/a.524217247761107.1073741828.513174152198750/572610542921777/?type=3&theater

Could there be something ?
ColinSeftel
Colin Seftel 2
Aljazeera is now reporting that the Greek radar findings were incorrect. The head of Egypt's state-run provider of air navigation services says that EgyptAir flight 804 did not swerve or lose altitude before it disappeared off radar.
See http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/egyptair-plane-swerve-crash-160523143800474.html
cldis
Claude DIS 2
Looks weird. Aljazeera quotes Reuters, which doesn't give precise details about what the Egyptian air navigation said. Why would the Egyptians say that ? To put one more layer of fog on this tragedy ? Makes me think of the information of the French TV M6 (very poor quality) saying Saturday that the pilots had talked to the Egyptian air control about smoke in the cockpit a few minutes before the plane disappeared from radars. This information has afterwards been proven wrong.

But the top of stupidity so far is this one :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3604875/Extraordinary-claim-Turkish-airline-pilots-saw-UFO-MS804-vanished-just-hour-crashed-emerges-one-Turkey-s-biggest-news-outlets.html

They just forget that on Thursday at 11:30pm, the MS804 had been at the bottom of the Med Sea for almost 24 hours.
rsmath
rsmath 2
how far does egyptian airspace cover off the coast of egypt? I keep wondering as I watch the coverage if anyone on the mediterranean coast near cairo with a decent ads-b setup would have been able to pick up any final ads-b transmissions. I know FA (nor apparently the competitor who the news orgs have been showing during their coverage) seem to have a feeder who picked up final ads-b. Distance-wise from my own experience here in the U.S., I'm routinely receiving aircraft flying 37,000 feet starting at 200 miles away so I wonder if that would have covered egyptian airspace if I were in cairo or if egypt airspace covers further out.
rsmath
rsmath 1
that should be "not had a feeder".
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Most airlines at this point have not incorporated ADS-B, so that would be a real long shot. ADS-B is very very new technology.

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 11
Counselor, are you familiar with the site: http://flightaware.com/adsb/ ?
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 8
Well said. Mr. Hartmann is well known for berating anyone and everyone who doesn't have their pilot's license, regardless of knowledge or experience. This post is no different.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
I concur David and very well said to both yourself and Joel

[This poster has been suspended.]

allench1
allench1 3
It is not your space to dictate how it is used, oh and I am a well Qualified pilot from baby 9's through 747 diff. models and an assortment of private turbines. Not trying to be sarcastic just stating the facts, but of course reading your previous squawks you will want proof and you arnt woth the time.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Thanks for the link. The way that I am into Avionics/Electronics, Computers, and Planes, I am certainly going to build one of those devices... great info that I had not found yet.

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 5
Mr. Hartmann, I am not sure you read thru the link that I posted and upon which you commented 'weird hobby'. Had you done so, you might have seen that the 'hobby' is a series of products produced to feed data to Flightaware. Included in that link is:

"With over 50 non-ADS-B data sources and over ten million monthly users, FlightAware is the world's largest aggregator and free source of live flight tracking and flight data. If you have ADS-B data or are interested in receiving it, FlightAware is the best partner for sharing your data with the world and being recognized for your contribution. FlightAware will aggregate your positions with dozens of available sources to share with millions of users."

I personally see a benefit to my providing data to Flightaware by receiving an Enterprise Subscription ($89/mo value). That Flightaware developed and maintains the software to run the feeds, they seem to feel there is value as well.

[This poster has been suspended.]

Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 4
Yes, Mr. Hart. Your flight patterns in particular are of great interest to me. I do not wish to be around your area of operations as if you are this terrible at trolling on the internet, I'm expecting your flight skills are likely not up to par. How did your last BFR go?
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
If you are un-licensed and are in the learning stages, the chances that your plane having this technology is next to none. If you were to install it into a small plane by current technology there would be weight capacity issues... ADS-B is the latest and greatest, but the Airlines are not even using it yet... It is that new. but for airlines it is going to be requirement. I know the airline that I work for we are phasing in upgrades getting ready for it... Laying wire bundles and installing the ground work for when it actually breaks out. It is not only ADS-B, but rather an integration and modification of all the electronics... For example, having it is great, but you have to interface it with the rest of the electronics... If you do not, how are you going to get the infomation... Example, it has to be wired into the EFIS screens or steam gages so to speak, and then the devices have to upgraded and modified to be able to receive and display that data. That means modifiying the EFIS Screens, output devices, and installing communications lines to make it talk to the rest of the plane.. think about the FD and AP are are required to be tied into this as well. It is not as simply as a home computer and it is not Plug-N-Play.
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 1
Unfortunately, thanks to 91.225 ADS-B is even coming to the little guys by 2020. I have several former customers who are selling their aircraft and getting out now because they can't afford the retrofit. It really is sad.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Very true... I was thinking it was by 2025, I guess they moved it up.. the airlines still are not ready for it and the deadline is coming soon. I am just wondering how the Deferals/MEL's will be applied as you know as with any piece of electronics... they BREAK!
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
Duuuuuuuuude!!!
allench1
allench1 4
Peter just does not get it Thrustt, think of Wayne Bookout every time I post on this site, just saying....

[This poster has been suspended.]

nasdisco
Chris B 2
Acars can't tell the whole story, but sudden failure of the sliding window (you chose cause of the failure), then evidence of smoke in toilet (behind cockpit) and in electronics bay (under cockpit and toilet), then I'm trending towards sudden decompression and fire (you chose cause).
If internal (bomb) or external (missile) point of impact/explosion would give flight crew little chance of maintaining control.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I am tending to disagree... We had a lot of ACARS messages, but to naturally assume a bomb is not good. Smoke possibly, but what is the real source... It could be the ships battery, or a host of other electronics or who knows what else... Satelite says there were no explosions. If it were a missile Satelite would have picked that up, so that scenerio is pretty much out. If it was electrical they could have thought that it was decompression forcing a controlled decent, and then things go worse and everyone knows the basic conclusion.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 2
I agree with you Sparkie. So far there is no report of any heat flash or any other indication of an explosion, contrary to what happened to the Russian jet over the Sinai. Keep in mind that this area is closely monitored by several countries.
bbabis
Bill Babis 3
Its Interesting that throughout its recent history the flight has been a B738 and on this flight it was an A320. I would assume that this was also not the normal crew for the trip.
macaque
macaque 2
Actually - comaparing the history here and FR24 there seems to be a disconnect on aircraft type - it was A320 for previous days (completed flights) on FR24 and 737-800 listed here. The FR24 site does have registration numbers though.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

lyonstom2003
Tom Lyons 13
Why are you so reflexively hostile to people who are noting unusual circumstances surrounding this flight? If it was a different plane than usual, and a larger crew than usual, that's something that's worthy of discussion.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 12
linbb is obviously a troll. FA should ban his sorry ass.

[This poster has been suspended.]

Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 4
Mr. Hart! That is the most intelligent thing you've said today.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Would you please go crawl back into your hole!
andrew357
andrew357 3
An Egyptair Airbus A320-200, registration SU-GCC (our reports database features 0 other incidents for the same aircraft, Egypt has been listed 35 times within our reports database) performing flight MS-804 (dep May 18th) from Paris Charles de Gaulle (France) to Cairo (Egypt) with 56 passengers and 10 crew, was enroute at FL370 over the Mediterranan Sea about 130nm north of Alexandria (Egypt) and about 210nm northnorthwest of Cairo when the transponder signals of the aircraft ceased at 02:33L (00:33Z). The aircraft is presumed crashed in the Mediterranean Sea.

The airline reported at 05:00L (03:00Z), that flight MS-804, estimated to land in Cairo at 03:10L (01:10Z), is missing and so far has not landed at any airport in reach of the aircraft. Egyptair subsequently tweeted that the aircraft was enroute at FL370 about to enter Egyptian Airspace when radar contact with the aircraft was lost at 02:45L (00:45Z). A search and rescue operation has been launched. The airline further corrected initial statement of 59 passengers to 56 passengers actually on board of the aircraft. The commander had accumulated 6,275 hours with 2,101 hours on type, the first officer has accumulated 2,675 hours. The aircraft had been manufactured in 2003. The airline has opened hotlines for relatives at +202 25989320 (outside Egypt) and 080077770000 (landline in Egypt).

At about 07:40L (05:40Z) Egyptair updated their statement saying, that the contact with the aircraft was lost 280km (151nm) from the Coast of Egypt at 02:30L (00:30Z). The crew comprised the captain, first officer, 5 cabin crew and 3 sky marshals. Amongst the passengers there were 30 Egyptians, 15 French, 2 Iraqis, 1 British, 1 Belgian, 1 Kuwaiti, 1 Saudi, 1 Sudanese, 1 Chadian, 1 Portugese, 1 Algerian and 1 Canadian.

Greece's Civil Aviation Authority reported radar contact with the aircraft was lost about 2 minutes after the aircraft was handed off from Greek to Egyptian Air Traffic Control. The crew did not report any problems up to hand off. The CAA subsequently clarified, that the crew was talking to air traffic control in Greek when the aircraft entered the Greek control zone. When ATC attempted to hand the aircraft off to Egypt the crew did not respond, radar contact was lost 2 minutes after the first attempt to raise the crew for hand off, the aircraft was 7nm past mandatory reporting point KUMBI (N33.7139 E28.7500), boundary between Greek and Egyptian control zone.
andrew357
andrew357 2
At 08:25L (06:25Z) Egypt Air reported that search and rescue have picked up an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) signal. Dawn in the area was at 04:26L.

France is joining the search and rescue efforts dispatching ships and aircraft into the search area, which is already being scanned by Greek and Egypt aircraft and ships.

At 10:15L (08:15Z) Airbus posted "Airbus regrets to confirm that an A320 operated by Egyptair was lost at around 02:30 am (Egypt local time) today over the Mediterranean sea. The aircraft was operating a scheduled service, Flight MS 804 from Paris, France to Cairo, Egypt. The aircraft involved, registered under SU-GCC was MSN (Manufacturer Serial Number) 2088 delivered to Egyptair from the production line in November 2003. The aircraft had accumulated approximately 48,000 flight hours. It was powered by IAE engines. At this time no further factual information is available."

A good number of civilian ships in the area have, according to MarineTraffic, veered off their intended courses and are now steaming towards a common position at approximately N33.4 E29.7 approximately 30nm eastnortheast of the last ADS-B position. A first ship "Oceanus" has already reached that position and is nearly stationary there.

At 12:30L (10:30Z) France's President Hollande announced that the aircraft has crashed while flying over the Mediterranean Sea in Egyptian Airspace.

The responsible Paris states attorney has opened an investigation into the disappearance of the aircraft but cautioned, that a mechanical failure or other causes besides terrorism have not been ruled out at this point. No credible claims of downing the aircraft have been made so far.

A number of ships left intended course towards a common position (Graphics: MarineTraffic):


Infrared Satellite Image Seviri May 19th 2016 00:00Z (Photo: AVH/Meteosat):


Map and flight trajectory based on Mode-S transponder signals (Graphics: AVH/Google Earth):

At the time of writing, the aircraft type Airbus A-320 is being featured at least 819 times.
ELIASMACEDO
Elias Macedo 2
Very sad this news I heard, by flightwere, Radarbox24, flightradar24 and other and other social networks and aviãção ,That jesus will comfort those families God bless and comfort
murrayhill3
Jim Murray 0
If jesus were to be in the seat beside me on flight 804, would he die with me? Who would comfort me then?
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 4
HE only flies Southwest. You're on your own.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Ugh... I used to work for South West... I would never fly them. Perdiction: They are going to have a very big let down and a lot of people are going to pay the ultimate price. I have been on the inside of that company and I know how they work... One real bad thing.. Pier Pressure... The crash in LGA just recently putting a nose wheel in the Electronics bay was a direct result that the captain put the on time aircraft ahead of safety... A VERY BAD THING!
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 2
This is terrible. Condolences to the families and friends.

Usually security in France is rather well done. I'd be surprised if terror boarded there.

If people in that part of the world want to live in the fifth century, and are willing to go to war to insist on it, why don't the rest of the world let them have their way and suspend aviation until they wake up, and fly right.

[This poster has been suspended.]

Moviela
Ric Wernicke 2
The statement was crafted to be witty and rhetorical, sorry you missed that.
RadBaron
RadBaron 2
At least 8 ships in the local area altering courses

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:748443/zoom:10
yr2012
matt jensen 1
I'm surprised there were only eight? There's about a hundred ships out there on a typical day in the Eastern Med.
w7psk
Ricky Scott 1
Boy that is not a lie :), In my previous life I was an Airborne Electronic Warfare operator for the US Navy. We did Med runs a lot and trying to pick Combat Ship Radars out of the Piles of ComTrucks (Nickname for Commercial Vessels) was a GIANT PITA. On any given run, I could hear 100s of Radars in my receiver.
RadBaron
RadBaron -1
The zone I highlighted is only about 20 sq miles, zoom out for a LOT of ships :)
yr2012
matt jensen 1
A ship captain who had earlier posted on his Facebook page that he was involved in the search for debris has now posted images of what he says is a lifejacket in the sea.

Tarek Wahba is an employee of the Maersk shipping company from Alexandria. He said a lifejacket and part of an airplane chair were found, but it is not clear where.
fastroper
Cecil Clark 1
CNN reporting debris confirmed to be from the plane is being recovered in the Med; further, both Egyptian government and US officials say it was likely a bomb.
skymann
Ken Day 1
Omg, certainly sounds a terrorism occurance. There seems no info of bad weather, or mechanical trouble. Prayer are with the search and rescue, and for the grieving families. Cheers.
Wayne47
Michael Townsley 1
Perhaps the reported last minute maneuvering were the pilots attempts to execute a controlled spin to either drop altitude quickly and/or to confuse high-jackers who were in a high altitude shoot out with air-marshals.
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
That's thinking outside the box but doesn't explain no radio calls from the crew.
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 3
Alaska Airlines Flight 261: While in the final dive (due to flight control failure), the CVR recorded the flight crew saying Mayday repeatedly. This was not transmitted to ATC. It's plausible (and seen before) that the crew thought they were making a radio call and in the heat of the moment (regardless of the circumstance) failed to key the mic.
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
Great point David. As many have said, when the recorders are found, we will have our answers.
chudddds
chudddds 2
having the recorders does NOT guarantee all the answers. and that's if they are not damaged beyond recovering.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
The DFDR's as they are called no days can be pretty much totally destroyed and they can still recover most all of the data from the memory module. It is amazing what they can do on the bench to make a pile of crap smell like roses... Figuratively speaking that is.
chudddds
chudddds -2
and you are so wrong.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Why would you say that... There was a crash a number of years ago (can't remember the flight). The FDR was in about 3 pieces. They took the memory module and extracted 99% of the data.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
I think he may be the poster person for Peter F. Hartmann's argument.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 1
Maybe you're thinking of the Germanwings crash.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I don't think so. The one I was talking about was a DFDR and was physically in 3 separate pieces when it was recovered...
w7psk
Ricky Scott 1
How is he so wrong, Do you design the specs for the DFDR? I Did and they have amazing survival requirements for the memory module, Much higher G requirements than any aircraft should attain even in a catastrophic failure. Also the Burn Requirements exceed what any aircraft should experience. Of course these are the modern recorders, not the old wire or tape ones but those should be long gone.
Wayne47
Michael Townsley 1
Perhaps not so far out of the box per a NY Post report: "The plane was headed from Paris to Cairo Thursday when it went down somewhere in the Mediterranean Sea, killing all 66 aboard. Flight data automatically sent by sensors on aircraft indicated smoke inside the plane, officials said.

After the conversation, the pilot made an “emergency descent” in an effort to depressurize the cabin and clear the smoke, according to the French station."
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
At 40 miles out I would think that the crew was anticipatingredients their arrival instructions;vectors,check points etc. All day the news has reported that not so much as a peep came from the crew..Is it to much to consider that theven crew had the radio tuned to the AWOS or ATIS so that they could properly configure plane for landing and then disaster struck to the extent flying the plane became the first priority?
cldis
Claude DIS 1
Horror.
My first reaction was that it could NOT be a terrorist attack. The security measures in Paris CDG airport are strict. Nevertheless, since the November terrorist attacks in Paris, the Paris Airport has fired dozens of «radicalized» people who were working on the airport zone, and were more or less in contact with the planes. So, could someone have put a device on board during the stop in Paris ? Terrible question. Hope the black boxes will be found quickly and speak.
All my thoughts to the loved ones of the victims.
chudddds
chudddds 1
This plane originated in Eritrea, then to Cairo, Tunis, back to Cairo, then to Paris.
cldis
Claude DIS 1
Yes, that's what I've read. But putting something on board during the former stops increases the possibilities that the device may be found during the different security checks the plane must have gone through (unless the security conditions at these airports are poor…). So, what worries and scares me is that the bomb (let's be careful, there's no proof yet) was put during the Paris stop.
chudddds
chudddds 2
Yeah, I hear ya Claude, but I'm always reminded of Pan Am 103, which originated in Frankfurt, Germany. But while in London, there was a plane change, and different baggage and different passengers were introduced. I lost some friends on that flight, I was in the USAF at the time and that particular flight was being used as a military charter flight, along with civilians. So , on this Egypt Air flight, you gonna have different baggage and humans getting on and off that has nothing to do with Paris. Doesn't mean I know jack, what I'm getting at is, just cause it left Paris, doesn't mean they pulled off all the baggage and humans from multiple stops and checked the contents, humans and baggage. It took the FBI and Brits 3 years to figure that out on Pan Am 103. Remember 911, if their baggage hadn't been put on the wrong flight, it would have taken the FBI much longer to get their info, if at all. We ALL don't know jack , yet. But I admit, your post took me back to 1988. No christmas or new years that year for me.
cldis
Claude DIS 1
Thank you for your answer, Chudddds, I understand better now how it works when a plane makes several trips to different airports during one single day. I'm so sorry that my post reminded you the friends of yours who were on Pan Am 103. I lost a friend on TWA 800. This is why I dislike these tragedies every time they happen.
Thanks again.
chudddds
chudddds 2
my tears i shed are with you
narit01
Ian Narita 1
Egypt, Greece, Turkey, and (I would think) Israel probably have radar coverage of this airspace. Primary coverage is for defense purposes to identify aircraft that might be flying towards or near their airspace. Both Egypt and Israel have some of the better in this category.
amocsi
Amoc Sivunna 1
From the voice and flight recorder we'll know the truth. In any case a terrorist act is almost certain. If the vrekages will be found near Alexandria could be a bomb regulated with the internal pressure of the aircraft or at the biginning of the descend procedure.
BlankenWH
Wim Blanken 1
Why was this aircraft flying faster than its topspeed, minutes before the crash? (See details MS804 on flightradar24)
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 3
I could be wrong but I think FR25 and FA both show estimated ground speeds, that makes it extremely difficult to determine true air speed.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Probably going down hill instead level flight.
lgj
leif JOHANSSON 1
The plane came from somewhere before it landed in Paris.
What if a bomb was loaded on the plane on the airport where it came from !!
/LJ
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Seems like there is a pretty big debris field.....what are the odds we are dealing with another plane that was shot down....Syria,Isreal, Greece and Russia all have a presence in that area and non of them haven't said anything..Russia has recently shot a passenger jet down in the last year and they do have a navalanche station in the area....Just a speculation but unless the plane just broke apart no one has taken any responsibility for it.
ah6oy
Jim DeTour 1
Tough figuring with little info. Current info was smoke in forward lavatory. I was initially thinking flight controls loss with attempts for control reversing direction to a 360 to the right. Reminded me of a Swiss Air when an entertainment system overheating destroyed the plane. Breakers for the passenger cabin didn't turn off the entertainment system so arcing continued with worse yet insulation was flammable. But with only smoke for a clue even the APU in the tail whose bleed valve supplies cabin air could be passing smoke throughout the aircraft and through air nozzles in the lavs where the smoke detectors are. If an APU in the tail had problems that spread to controls back there its more than a smoke problem. Sad day. I've started to wonder if allowed altitudes to be flown shouldn't be reevaluated seeing that any control issues at 37k like they were at adds to the dangers.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Fire is everyones worse nightmare.....smh
s201401011
tsz kwai chan 1
Where? where?
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Wreckage found near Karpathos Island
paultrubits
paul trubits 1
This is like watching the Superbowl and all you get is coverage of a fight in the stands.
Oval
Olav Neiuwejaar 1
And usually started by one particularly insecure and sarcastic jerk.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I do not know why I think that comment is funny. But it is...
zxint003
ZXINT ZS 1
Hopes and prayers.
mthhurley
Mike Hurley 1
Why is the news reporting a 90 and then a 360 turn while descending through 10,000 but FA data shows none of that?
boughbw
Brian Bough 3
Probably through the use of military radar by the Greeks. If I had to guess -- and guessing is all any of us are doing right now anyway -- the events are consistent with a small bomb exploding, compromising the fuselage, but not initially dooming the aircraft. A 90 degree turn toward the island of Karpathos, near where the wreckage was found, might indicate the pilots were trying to land there. Getting down to 15,000 would mean getting somewhere with enough oxygen to compensate for the loss of pressure. From there, perhaps the stress of flying with the hole in the plane eventually caused its disintegration.
ColinSeftel
Colin Seftel 2
The report from Greek military radar is also consistent with a AF447 scenario - instrument failure, loss of auto-pilot, stall and crash.
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 2
Also similarities to American 587. We can't know anything until the recorders are examined.
boughbw
Brian Bough 1
That would be scary -- none of the turbulence caused by weather or riding in the wake of a much larger jet existed. Or, to put it another way, the tail simply fell off. I would not think this to be likely, but if it were the case, the tail of every 320 would need to be reexamined.

For me, with al Qaeda's soda can bomb and laptop bomb, I feel like the scenario I offered above is much more likely -- initial decompression followed by later disintegration. The soda can also offers the greatest possibility of the bomb being smuggled on-board prior to the plane's arrival at CdG.
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 2
Agreed that the wake encounter that caused the copilot to control the rudder excessively exists here. However this aircraft is at a much faster airspeed so I would think a quick accidental rudder input (whatever the cause) would be equally catastrophic.
MikeMohle
Mike Mohle 3
Critical V speeds are computed at IAS not GS which is what FA reports. IAS at FL370 was likely 240ish Kts. Also, wouldn't A320 FBW control system ensure that over control inputs not upset the aircraft to result in a DFCF?
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 2
At 37000 I'm guessing they had a cruise power set at around Mach 0.78 much different aerodynamically than sub 250kts below 10000ft.
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 2
Meant to say "doesn't exist here."
boughbw
Brian Bough 1
That is a great point I had not considered.
boughbw
Brian Bough 1
Not quite: With AF447 they were flying through intense thunderstorms, but nothing too unusual for the passage across the Atlantic. However, they were also inducing a stall by continually trying to climb. Here the altitude held steady at 37,000 feet until the event that caused them to descend (there was no climb/attempt to climb of which we are aware). I'm sure the debris field will also yield clues. AF447 was intact until impact -- a positively frightening scenario for the passengers who likely were aware that they were crashing for about 3-4 minutes before it happened. If the MS804 debris field is widely scattered, it would suggest disintegration of the aircraft while still in the air.
boughbw
Brian Bough 1
skymann
Ken Day 1
Omg, certainly sounds a terrorism occurance. There seems no info of bad weather, or mechanical trouble. Prayer are with the search and rescue, and for the grieving families.
btweston
btweston -3
Smoke in the cockpit is the new news. If Donald Trump gets elected he won't allow smoke in the cockpit. It's really a bad way to have a cockpit. It's disgusting, really. Donald Trump won't allow smoke in the cockpit of he's elected president. But he won't tell you how he'll go about it. If you ask he'll have his people write mean tweets about you.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Such a bad comment.. Smoke in the comment is not a joke and should not joke about and can be and is a major problem. As a maintenance controller I have worked with crews in the air with smoke in the Cockpit/cabin/lav. I will never joke about them and they are serious situations. A lot turn out to be false alarms, most are ACM's in the Air conditioning system that is coming apart and puts smoke in the cabin... Any crew that assumes that it is a system failure and disregards these messages and continues normal flight does not get my respect. I could care less if it is a fault Lav Smoke detector going off... TREAT IT AS BEING REAL, DIVERT TO NEAREST SUITABLE, and get the hell out of the plane and let maintenance and the Fire Departments to make the determination...

I would reference Air Canada 797 in KCVG, all started with a popped CB for a toilet motor that if the breaker had not been reset 3 times, over heated and caught fire... Upon landing and exiting the plane, 21 people died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_797

I don't normally ask this, but I ask my friends to down vote your comment because of its tone!
rahodges
Richard Hodges 0
+Why don't commercial aircraft have boxes that float. How much would that add to the total cost of a plane?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Keep in mind that these units are mounted into the aircraft, usually in the tail... To make it float it would have to detach.. Great idea but not realistic... Most of the times when they are recovered they are still attached to the structure... Also, floating would cause them to take up more space and if you had something to pop a valve to inflate something then you have the issues of having that monitored and repaired. A costly expense for very little gains.
ColinSeftel
Colin Seftel 1
Why do we rely so heavily on data recorders? The technology is available to continuously relay the same flight data and voice communications by satellite link.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Not True, The data that is down linked by comparison is very very small and the ACARS data is only sent in specific intervals (5 minutes for example, and some only once per flight). The FDR or DFDR is a continuous recording that shows every second and fractions of seconds of flights and stores this data so that it can be rebuilt. Check out: https://youtu.be/33NUAy3eomg and this will show you how the FDR can track. there is no way that an ACARS could give this kind of data, also the DFDR will track over 256 data points. They can look at engine running parameters, Throttle command positions, Flight Control Command positions, as well as actual flight positions... It will cover this an more. A few things tracked: Every switch position commanded, Pressurization and Cabin Enviroment, and an all messages (Status, cautions, warnings, and Norms),All flight data info (Altitude, Attitude,Airspeed), A/C actual position (From both GPS and from the navigation system), and one other piece of information that the crew never see is a 3 Axis G-Meter so that they know how many G's the aircraft is sustaining and not just the attitude. All data in the FDR and DFDR can be compiled into a computer system and produce information to put the flight back together to see what happened and generate animations with the parameters they desire just as in the youtube link above.

I hope this answers your question.
ColinSeftel
Colin Seftel 1
That's a comprehensive explanation of how the current ACARS and FDR works - thanks! However I was asking why ALL the FDR and CVR data isn't streamed via satellite to a remote storage device. NASA does this for every launch. The technology is available, but we aren't making use of it. Yes there will be a cost, but look at the cost of locating flight recorders deep underwater, eg SA295, AF447 and MH370.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
No... Very little data by comparison is streamed live.... Most of the info streamed is based on a system failing or health updates of the plane that either go to the company of maintenance. A good example would be a pilot sends an acars message that he needs maintenance to meet the aircraft that he has a pax door outer handle caution. For the fleet that I work under I would ping the a/c for codes and get the information that tell me that PX-25 is faulty... I would be ready with the part or deferral of the aircraft when he lands to eliminate or minimize any delays or cancellations.

On regular schedules engine data is also downloaded as well as error codes that are on the aircraft for maintenance to review as well.

[This poster has been suspended.]

buzzard767
Buzz Schranz 1
Even if they could float to the surface the wind and currant would take far away, or not.
watkinssusan
mary susan watkins 0
today on the news it was reported the searchers have found some debris, such as floating lubggage, and also sadly,some body parts..it was also stated today the reporting system from the plane (acars)sent signals of smoke in a restroom and possibly in avionics (I am not familiar with that plane so what i am writing is what was on cnn this afternoon)..no one knows until the black boxes can be located exactly what the circumstances were...
margeauxk
Margeaux K -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

EgyptAir Flight Made Abrupt Turns, Crashed Into the Sea

An EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo with 66 passengers and crew on board crashed in the Mediterranean Sea early Thursday morning off the Greek island of Crete, with French President Francois Hollande confirming "that this plane crashed at sea and has been lost."

http://www.newser.com/story/225345/officials-egyptair-flight-crashed-into-the-sea.html
Oval
Olav Neiuwejaar -1
andrewcarter747b
andrewcarter747b -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

EgyptAir Flight MS804: 9/13/02/egyptair-flight-disappears-from-radar-while-flying-from-paris-to-cairo#XBQDTEBGwUssHeZj.99

An EgyptAir flight lost early Thursday over the eastern Mediterranean with 66 people on board fell 22,000 feet and swerved sharply in Egyptian airspace before it disappeared from radar screens, Greece's defence minister said.

The plane carried out a 90-degree turn to the left and a 360-degree turn to the right, falling from 37,000 to 15,000 feet and the signal was lost at around 10,000 feet," Defence Minister Panos Kammenos told a news conference.

His comments come shortly after French president François Hollande confirmed EgyptAir Airbus A320 had crashed.

Mr Hollande said “no hypothesis” could yet be ruled out regarding potential causes of the crash


Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/05/19/13/02/egyptair-flight-disappears-from-radar-while-flying-from-paris-to-cairo#XBQDTEBGwUssHeZj.99

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2016/05/19/13/02/Egyptair-flight-disappears-from-radar-while-flying-from-Paris-to-Cairo
sailsomsen
Hugh Somsen -1
Avoid long TSA lines, fly Egypt Air..... I don't need no stinking line......
buzzard767
Buzz Schranz -2
Real information is spotty at best. There is a possibility that 804 might have spun in - long shot I know, but possible. And what about F/A Samar Ezz Eldin who was working the trip and posted this picture on FaceBook 26Sep2014 - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=904184259710962&set=a.195202017275860.40482.100003581907956&type=3&theater


scary......
buzzard767
Buzz Schranz 0
Taking a closer look, that picture was actually posted by FaceBook member Samy Samh and is surely a PhotoShop project.
chudddds
chudddds -4
she's hot, or was
Oval
Olav Neiuwejaar -2
......
margeauxk
Margeaux K -3
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

EgyptAir: We Found Wreckage

Debris from EgyptAir Flight 804 has been found in the waters near Greece's Karpathos Island, ABC News reports via a statement from the airline.

http://www.newser.com/story/225365/egyptair-we-found-wreckage.html
buzzard767
Buzz Schranz -3
This was missed in an earlier post. F/A Samar Ezz Eldin who was working the trip and posted this picture on FaceBook 26Sep2014. It her exiting the water with a crashed plane behind her. It makes one suspect that she knew the crash was coming and this is her entering heaven. - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=904184259710962&set=a.195202017275860.40482.100003581907956&type=3&theater
chudddds
chudddds 1
buzz, dont get yourself in an oliver stone frenzy. patience.
buzzard767
Buzz Schranz 0
This Marine and airline pilot has just enough patience. No more.

[This poster has been suspended.]

buzzard767
Buzz Schranz 2
Sorry Esquire, it is what it is. I see you have a hard on for real pilots all over this thread. Time to stop being so defensive.
buzzard767
Buzz Schranz 1
On closer inspection it looks like a PhotoShop exercise by FaceBook member Samy Samh.
chudddds
chudddds 0
ROLMFAO !!!
buzzard767
Buzz Schranz 1
I double checked - she actually did post it on her FB timeline.
tlpaula
tarcio luiz leme de paula -3
sempre a mesma coisa e nunca aprendem e vidas que se vao,sao mais uns para o mundo e cia aerea.ficam tristezas das familias,empresa aerea nao perde o seguro paga outra aeronave.
chudddds
chudddds -4
susanna hoffs flew like
Junruner
Jose Rodriguez -4
I don't buy the "vanish" theory... If Google with a cheap $100 telephone knows where we are 24/7... How a millions of $$$ piece modern technology just "vanish"?
Our prayers are with them!
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
I think we just met one of the Dumb and Dumber Brothers... I think this one is Dumber.
chudddds
chudddds 2
he must work out
boughbw
Brian Bough 1
You realize that the Google phone still relies on cell service, right? In the south Mediterranean there is precious little cell service because it is the sea, not the land. The reason the aircraft's debris has been spotted so easily is the radar tracking.
That is far better than what happened with the Malaysian flight, where there was literally no radar coverage in the South Indian Ocean...
Oval
Olav Neiuwejaar 1
I think he is expressing frustration that with all of our technological knowledge, we still can't figure out what seems like a no-brainer -- but apparently isn't.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 2
No, because there is ACARS DATA!
chudddds
chudddds 1
to the grassy knoll on Diego Garcia

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 5
At the time of this post, there have been 263 comments. Of those, 44 are yours Mr. Hartmann. What is your point on your recent comment on 'Artur Kener'. And what do you think you have contributed with the other 43?

[This poster has been suspended.]

williambaker08
william baker 5
Thanks not what he said. Let me make this more clear for you. Everytime someone says something on this post you have to have the last say and it's never a good comment. As said before this chat is for everyone's opninon but to me like others your opninon seems to be the only one the counts. We have all been respectful to you and you been doing nothing but putting us all down, calling us stupid, and saying our opninons don't matter. I think it's time you take your own advice and stop putting everyone and everything down on here. As for the rest of us. I appreciate your patience as well as other people with this individual and his comments and harsh nature. Thank you for keeping a cool and collected head.
williambaker08
william baker 2
Also I am shocked and sadden that flight aware staff haven't noticed you or your comments yet to everyone on here.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
You are replying in a linked thread, the original post is one in question.
Reproduced for your convenience here:
[ artur kerner 3 days ago -11
Is there a possibility that the plane did not crash but that the transponders were shut off and the plane has been taken to a secret place.]

You could call it an opinion posed as a question if you so desire.

You have repeatedly expressed your OPINION that this forum should be by and for pilots only. I, and I believe others, have suggested you start your own forum such that you could control the membership and subject material and stop complaining that this public forum does not meet your standards.

If you feel so strongly that this forum is being abused, I suggest you refer your complain to Daniel Baker.
williambaker08
william baker 1
We're you referring to me Joey??
williambaker08
william baker 2
I didn't think so. Was just making sure was all.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
To be honest it was a comment with no relevance and was demeaning. There was proof to the contrary early on and they have found derbies from the aircraft.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I do not buy the ADS-B theory... The chances that plane just happened to have that equipment would be very much a long shot
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Peter, your ADS-B that you speak of is an aircraft installation that is both IN & OUT capable. The poster has a home ADS-B receiver or IN only device that receives information from aircraft in its local vicinity. I have one also where I am and its fun to see what I pick up. They are both relatively cheap and/or easy to make at home.

Don't worry about being a non pilot or what someone might say about it. I have some non pilot friends and acquaintances that are much more aviation literate that some pilots I know. Just be careful of flaunting the Esq. more than necessary on an aviation board.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 1
In Defense... Not all of us are Flight Crew... I for one am not, and generally I am accepted here, And I have heard a lot of not so great gripes from flight crews...

One of my favorite is: "The PA Light will not extinguish when I deselect it"... My usual answer is: "Of Course Not, Your Observers Audio Control Panel is set to the PA Position, Select another Mic selection"...

Yes, I hear that one a lot! No one is perfect, and we all have a lot to learn.

I am going to get slammed for this one... But 2 very common names given to pilots are:

"Seat to Throttle Actuators" and "Seat to Yolk Actuators" :)
ColinSeftel
Colin Seftel 1
"Yolk" actuator - useful if you want an omelette maybe?
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 0
You're not speaking loud enough, Mr. Hart. Will you speak up? Mr. Hart, you're still not speaking loud enough. Will you stand? Speak louder, Mr. Hart! Fill the room with your intelligence!

[This poster has been suspended.]

bronson199
Frank Reynolds 10
Is there any chance you will cut this whiny "protesting" any time soon? Or are you just going to continue the spiteful and rude trolling on these forums? If the latter, why not just leave the site?

You don't even engage with anyone here; you just bitch and rant. You bring less to the discussion than the lowly non-pilots you despise so much. I'd argue that all you do is detract from it.
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 9
I'd say the odds of Mr. Hartmann departing our presence anytime soon is somewhere between slim and none. He seems to love berating those without type ratings, regardless of whether they have other technical expertise or experience to contribute. As I've suggested previously, he should create and moderate his own discussion forum (I recommended "arrogantpilot.com") on which he can require all participants carry a licence. Thus far, my recommendation has been ignored, both in discussion and in practice.

At this point, I believe the Esquire is attempting to set a board record for most down-votes.

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 5
Sir, I may be obtuse, but I have not discerned from your comments that you were suggesting good manners. You have consistently 'suggested' than all non-pilots get the h*** off this forum. I don't see that as good manners. If you have provided any positive contribution to discussions in squawks over the last year , I seem to have missed it. If there is a problem in the boards of people "babbling away to others", I submit that you, sir, are part of that problem rather than part of the solution. This particular thread is about an airliner crash due to as yet undetermined causes. I have attempted to contribute a little information to the mix (guestimated position for the site, source for an informational quote. What have you contributed to the discussion Mr. Hartmann?

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 4
I think that wrapping oneself in the flag and advising non-experts to self censor is getting off the topic of MS804. Much posted here is speculation, some idle some not. There is a report that the black boxes have been detected and perhaps we will have more information to speculate on. G'day

[This poster has been suspended.]

bronson199
Frank Reynolds 2
So that's a no, then. Got it.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 10
You don't have to be a pilot to participate on FA, but there certainly isn't a need for more troll types making light of a tragic accident. "Up-ness"? Down-ness?" Either a very lame attempt at humor or a fine display of your "dumb-ness". Based on your other negative and nasty comments on these forums, I'll go with the latter.
sanderscleveland
Sanders Cleveland 7
I agree. And although I don't generally like to jump to conclusions, when I read those 3 letters, I was pretty sure what type of individual's comments I was reading. Oh, the 3 letters? Esq. Get real, does anybody seriously use that term anymore? Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled squawking.
joelwiley
joel wiley -3
Mr. Hartmann is licensed to practice law before the bar in California and has a perfect right to use Esq. if he chooses. He has expressed opinions, before you registered in FA, that the boards should be limited to those individuals who have held a pilots license. Some on the boards disagree. You might research his past posts and review your conclusions.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 5
This has nothing to do with what he sticks at the end of his name and everything to do with his rudeness and ignorant comments. He thinks only pilots should be on these forums? Anyone can join FA and list themselves as a private pilot or an ATP. Who is going to know the difference? How do we know he's a pilot? Just because his profile photo shows him standing in front of an airplane? I have reviewed his past posts. Let's just say I wouldn't ask for his legal or aeronautical advice.
joelwiley
joel wiley -2
His licenses to fly and lawyer are a matter of public record. His community has a dirt strip with an airport code. I believe your opinion of his opinions are a bit higher than mine.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Actually my ratings are much different than most around here. I am an Aircraft Airline Mechanic with over 38 years of experience working airline class planes and specializing in Avionics & Electrical systems. You will note that my replies more so follow towards a technical view. I have lost count of all the types of A/C that I have worked on, but it has been Boeing's, McDonald Douglas, Fokker, Bombardier Products (CRJ & Dash's), a few Airbus's, Embraers, SABBS, and more.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
My bad, 'license' is fuzzy terminology for the airman's certificate. I stand corrected. But I believe it was a license the Calif Bar issued.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Either License or Certificate works... I have an A&P Certificate, but in most areas of the arena it is referenced as a license... Good point of interest I have several friends who are A&P's and Airmen. Many of they have a pilots licence and many say they have an airmens certificate are both in the same card. In reality, it is one in the same, and Certificate vs license is more Political Correctness than anything else... For the record, I am not PC.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 3
It is not there.... In print it is call a Certificate, but many in the mechanics field have called it license.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 6
Yeah, definitely a know-nothing troll. WeatherWise called it.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT -1
Duuuuuuuuuude!!!

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