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Read The Terrifying Last Words Of A Russian Pilot As Flight Crashes Into Ocean

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Russian authorities have released a report on the black box found in the wreckage of a military plane that veered off course and crashed in the Black Sea on Christmas Day, killing all 92 people on board. (dailycaller.com) 更多...

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shenghaohan
Shenghao Han 16
Good job putting a picture of crashing Boeing 747 there. Even though the plane crashed is a Russian made Tu-154
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 5
You caught that also...and I didnt realize the wing flaps steer the plane???...
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Yeah.. I thought I had made comment to that.. LOL... those TU-154 production ended in 1972. those things are VERY VERY OLD! If they wanted to post a similar picture a 727 would have been closer... After all that is what the Russians copied it from!
babyracer
babyracer 13
Why even bother with a similar picture of a 727? A simple Google search for Tu-154 turns up tons of good quality photos of said aircraft. I really don't understand why journos do this sort of thing these days, it's just lazy journalism.

Journalism has lost so much integrity since the advent of social media. Sad.
IvanJaszlics
Ivan Jaszlics 1
Actually, the two planes are quite different (having been in the cockpit of both in flight, and of course I know the 727 intimately).
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Was just saying that they could have choosen something a little closer to what it really was.. that is all.. Geez.. the DC-9 would be closer than a 747!
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
We're only talking about a photo here. I just finished an article about a "crash" in the era of gasoline engines and the publisher posted an iconic picture of a B727 because the article was about Eastern Airlines. It only makes a difference to the young who wouldn't know a DC6 from a DC8.
KAL259
Tom Vidar Pedersen 2
Hmm - there was still limited production of the 154M model as of January 2009. In this accident, the working/handling of the flaps is the key i think ! Cause when a heavy loaded plane take off, the speed is relatvely low in the first stage of the departure so....the plane must be able to climb safe inside its envelope....to say it !
KAL259
Tom Vidar Pedersen 10
A plane can be very old, but if maintained well, it can last and last. Here in Norway we have a Dakota DC 3 with registration LN - WND bulit back in 1943. It´s belong to Dakota Norway and is in a suberb condition, but a lot of money is invested an peopple with a big love for this machine take very well care of it.
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 2
Tom:
Welcome aboard and congrats on your first posts!
Agreed that the calendar age isn't necessarily indicative of airworthiness. A much better metric is cycle count, which airliners tend to tack on rather steadily. Indeed, if well maintained, they can last many thousands of cycles. The problem is that once the primary operators retire them, they often go to, shall we say, less reputable carriers, or carriers in countries with less oversight on their aviation maintenance program.
It's here that the real problems pop up for a couple reasons. First, the lack of oversight and second, the lack of reporting of known issues to OEMs, which makes it very hard (if not impossible) to create long-term maintenance actions. (Can't fix what you don't know is broken).
Certainly not saying that's the case here, but definitely something that will be looked at in the investigation.
KAL259
Tom Vidar Pedersen 3
Yepp, it was delivered new to the Russian Airforce in 1983, and later several companies used it until coming back to the airforce again in 2005 :
February 1983
CCCP-85572
Soviet Air Force
first flight
28 April 1994
RA-85572
Russian Air Force
new registration
1 Nov. 1994
RA-85572
Korsar
leased
6 June 1997
RA-85572
Iron Dragonfly
leased
18 June 1997
RA-85572
Russian Air Force
returned
19 Jan 2004
RA-85572
Aeroflot
leased
1 March 2005
RA-85572
Russian Air Force
returned
richardorgill
Richard Orgill 1
The Gonney Bird...have over 5,000+ in them....do you have a S/N on the one in Norway?
chalet
chalet -1
Tom you can not compare the quality of the design and manufacture of aircraft like the DC-3 and many many more made in the US and Western Europe over the past 70 years and the shoddy workmanship and extremely por quality of the Soviet era and Russian era aircrat. Why do you think that Aeroflot and many other Russian airlines now fly mostly Boeing and Airbus aircraft.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 6
Best be careful then if an AN124 or the AN225 comes near...dont want 1 of those big birds falling in your lap...ohh and btw...a Russian aircraft firm manufactures parts for Airbus...ans NASA uses Russian engines....shoddy, eehh..not up to our standards, definitly.
honzanl
honza nl 0
because there are no comparable Russian planes in their category yet. Yet the Tu-154 was and is a good airplane, safe, rugged, reliable. And the MC-21 promises to be a better plane than that 60-year old 737 design...(also crashed several times due to a single technical failure). ps why do you think US cars are lousy sold outside the US/ yes, ebcause their extremely poor quality and shoddy workmanship :)
ChaosFreak
James Ryan 2
Actually, US cars do pretty well outside the US. The top three car manufacturers in the world are Toyota (11%), General Motors (10.8%) and Volkswagen (10.7%).

The globalization of car manufacturing makes terms like "US cars" irrelevant in my opinion. The advent of computer aided design and simulation, plus automated manufacturing processes and quality controls, means that there is very little difference in quality among the top global car manufacturers.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/316786/global-market-share-of-the-leading-automakers/
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Although I dont agree with honza's description, US cars dont do as well as you think, outside the US...GM is possibly second in world due to outside US interests such as Daewoo Korea, Opel Germany, Vauxhall UK and Holden Austrailia...as a matter of interest, 2 cars sold under GM name in the US are actual imports..the Chevrolet SS is a re-badged Holden imported in from Australia and the Buick Regal is a re-badged Opel from Germany..the North American car quality of today appears to be much lower quality than yesteryear (they want throw away cars)
usrepeaters
Rob Palmer -3
You must not be referring to my former 1986 Chevrolet (GM) Celebrity which I drove all over North America for 1,134,000 miles (not km)for 24 years. I have never run an auto this long. Any of these eighties GM autos are and were an excellent value. Compression test in last year: 150# on all six cylinders. I am so glad it was not designed nor manufactured by the European Union, with their fascist philosophy.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
As another 'drive it forever camper', how far are you into your second 24 year test and with what vehicle?

[This poster has been suspended.]

TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff 2
I always thought that was the tail rudder's job...
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
No, Actually the Ailerons are supposed to turn the plane, but with a Flap disagree that would cause a turn as well. the Rudder is for Yaw Control. Where it can control some turning, it is more to assist in a coordinated turn and Yaw Dampening.
FrankHarvey
Frank Harvey 1
Hey Sparkie, rudder is also quite useful for stopping a spin, with the stick (ie ailerons) centered.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Yes... But it is controlling the YAW Axis!
FrankHarvey
Frank Harvey 2
Sorry - you are correct - I wasn't thinking it through.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Actually its that mini steering wheel to the left of the pilot and the rudder pedals that "steer" the aircraft
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 0
Thank you. It seems some us us need a review if flight surfaces and their purposes. I think I saw the steering control surfaces for the 777 referred to as "flaparons".
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Yes. Flaperon's and Spoilers! that is due to Wing Loading.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
So do most of us Torsten, except for some reason the article/reporter doesnt .."The flight data recorder, discovered at the bottom of the Black Sea Tuesday, indicates a problem with the wing flaps which steer the plane"...I so wish when articles are written and/or reporters report, that they use common sense...if unsure about something, research it, dont go all shackabable about it.
TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff 3
Sorry, I was amused by the term "wing flaps" -- as opposed to what other type of flap? That's why I wrote "tail rudder"
davidrbarnes
David Barnes 1
Not sure if it's salient to this discussion, but the MD90 has pylon flaps to aid in stall recovery. When the stick is pushed full nose down, they hydraulically actuate to provide additional noise down control, especially in case of deep stall.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Dont be sorry..hopefully some of our comments can make it into their lap!
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
I wouldn't bet on it. I followed story's trail. Embellishments added post BBC. Checked the "journalist's" posted link to his twitter account at
https://twitter.com/thomasphippen - it helps explain a few things.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Yes joel...that explained a great many things...maybe we could all send him a tweet?
davlauaa
david laughlin -1
If your flaps split on extension or retraction they certainly will "steer" the aircraft. I'm puzzled why they are at 300 knots and flaps are being actuated.
baingm
Gary Bain 1
The point is that flaps are not NORMALLY used to "steer" the airplane as indicated by the news story. Speed stated was most likely KPH which equates to about 162 knots. Nothing abnormal about that.
Bornn
Bornn 1
The deciphering of the black boxes were?
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 6
What I have problems with is the speed of the release of the last words. From what I see the report originates from The Mirror and The Sun, two British newspapers with less than stellar reputations. Also, as far as I know, the voice recorder was recovered on Dec. 28, and The Mirror and The Sun brought out their reports on the 28th. I doubt that Russia would release the words spoken as soon as they recover the voice recorder. Maybe someone who knows about the procedures can enlighten me how these recorders are opened, inspected and how it is possible to get the info and release it in such a short period. I suspect the words are just imaginary findings by sensationalist reporters.
joelwiley
joel wiley 4
Maybe their source is one of Ms. Clinton's Russian-hacked emails revealed by Wikileaks.
jimmurray333
Jim MURRAY 4
The Black Sea is a sea, not an ocean.
NF2G
David Stark -4
Actually, it's a lake. We have bigger ones in the US. :)
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 5
Actually it is a sea, as Jim said...it use to be a freshwater lake many many many moons ago...and the size of ALL the great lakes combined (96263 sq mi) doesnt come close to Black Sea (168569 sq mi)
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 2
Really? Which one?
NF2G
David Stark 1
I thought Superior was bigger, but I think I confused the Black Sea with one of the other "Seas" over there.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 1
Don't forget that about a third of Lake Superior's area is in Canada.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
looking up some stats:

Black Sea 168,496 Square Miles
Lake Superior 31,700 Square Miles (Lake Superior is the largest lake in the world)
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
I think I said the Black Sea size above sparkie (its actually a tad bigger than the stats you obtained)..Superior is the largest lake in the world surface size wise but believe it or not, it's third largest in volume..Baikal in Russia and Tanganyika in Africa are top 2 for volume..at 1 time, Black Sea held the total size trophy for a lake
KenIngram
KenIngram 3
This report is rubbish and should be treated as such.
LaneH10
Lane Hardison 2
The internet is fast becoming a cesspool of inaccurate information, And a lot of it is coming from the media. They write about things they know nothing about and act as if they are the authority on the subject matter. IE 747 Picture to get your attention when it was a Russian Tu-154 that crashed.
pachecojuan2967
Juan Pacheco 2
Why posting a Pic of a B747 ? I do.not get it
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
It may be an indication of the author's preference for using photoshop over facts.
pachecojuan2967
Juan Pacheco 1
Copy that, thks !!!!
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Probably an ID-10-T Error... There are a lot of those going on now days, and not just in the media!
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 2
Took the quote from the article:

"The flaps, panels on the wings that help lift an aircraft, were not moving together, a source close to the probe told the private Interfax news agency.
The pro-Kremlin Life news website says this led the pilots to lose control as the plane was at a "critical angle".
It also quoted the crew's last words, including: "The flaps, hell... !"

First, let me say that appears to be record time from CVR retrieval (Tuesday 12/27, from bottom of ocean) to making it onto tabloid press by the very next day (12/28)....unless I am missing something.

However, moving on, while the terminology may be awkward, they indicate the flaps were not working together (asymetric flap condition). At takeoff, high AOA, and close to full power, an asymetric flap condition in that airliner perhaps, at that particular time, may not be something easily fixed, especially if 1 wing stalled.

Remember AA 191 in Chicago, after the engine separated, the leading edge flaps on the left side retracted, stalling the left wing, and rolled the plane on her back. While the pilots did not know the flaps had been pushed back into a retracted position (as it appears this crew did know), it does help illuminate the fine line between flight and stall at takeoff with an asymetric flap condition.

Still too much out there unknown, and I still question just how much info is out there already for a crash that happened on Christmas.

Happy New Year everyone!!!
FrankHarvey
Frank Harvey 1
Re AA191: If you want that type of experience take something with a large wingspan (eg a Blanik sailplane) to a "safe" height (for recovery) raise the nose till you're a knot above stall speed then try a greater than standard rate turn. The inner wing will stall and the outer one will generate even more lift and over she goes...violently...and the spin develops.
FrankHarvey
Frank Harvey 2
Does 121-344 require the FDR be capable of recording asymmetric flap positioning/retraction ?

The relevant paragraphs I found don't seem to address this ..

(20) Trailing edge flap or cockpit flap control selection (except when parameters of paragraph (a)(85) of this section apply);

(21) Leading edge flap or cockpit flap control selection (except when parameters of paragraph (a)(86) of this section apply);

(85) Trailing edge flap and cockpit flap control position;

(86) Leading edge flap and cockpit flap control position;
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Yes it is. The FDR's monitor both sides independently!
FrankHarvey
Frank Harvey 1
Thanks Sparkie
ksbadger
John Clarke 1
The FAA Regs (CFR 14 Part 121) or the EUROCAE ED-55 do not apply in Russia. IIRC they have their own FDR standard & recording system based on analog voltages.
AZAFVET
Wayne Fox 2
All Tu-154's are now grounded according to the Russian Defense Ministry. read story below from Sputnik News.

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201612291049099270-russia-tu-154-planes/
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I didn't see much there, but at least they got the picture right... LOL... Thanks for sharing.
btweston
btweston 2
The Daily Caller is pretty weak.
RECOR10
RECOR10 2
Shenghao Han - That was the first thing I saw (747)...then was googling the TU to see of they had a copy of the deign I was not aware of.

You know the old saying - "got to hand it to the Russians, they can build the worlds largest MicroChip"
honzanl
honza nl 1
No, the Black Sea is NO ocean...
Usher73
Usher73 1
August 16, 1987

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_255

"The MD-82's rate of climb was greatly reduced as a result of the flaps not being extended"
jimmurray333
Jim MURRAY 0
I was watching a CNN telecast after the NWA accident at Detroit when it went live. A camera was pointed at the scene and showed a slew of bodies lying on a roadway for seconds before the operator pointed it up. It was a jaw dropper.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I have seen that a couple of times... At first they did not know what to expect, but they came to a very quick conclusion.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
That is not the kind of thing they mean when they say "reality TV"
grahbag
grahbag 1
Never knew the flaps steer the plane. So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong!
mduralia
Mike Duralia 1
Perhaps the line should have read:

"The flight data recorder, discovered at the bottom of the Black Sea Tuesday, indicates a problem with the wing flaps which, [when not operating properly] steer the plane [in completely unpredictable ways making the aircraft impossible to fly].
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Welcome to the FA boards Bornn.
Does the diagram in your linked post indicate the aircraft flight path? I don't read Russian and what appear to be time stamps don't seem to make sense to me.
ArthurNetteler
Arthur Netteler 1
They RAISED the FLAPS instead of the GEAR! Notice they do not mention the "Landing Gear" Warning sounding, as the Terrain Proximity Warning is sounding.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
But that does not explain the Flaps Disagree?
ah6oy
Jim DeTour 1
Sad stuff. I have to wonder if the flaps setting was inadvertently changed. I recall a long time ago there was some sort of cabling binding with other cables in a consoles housing that caused a problem where operating one control messed with another setting. Hopefully they figure out what went wrong and make things safer. Could be if a cable breaks the plane defaults to full flaps or none which isn't good while performing a max climb like they possibly were.
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 1
The flaps help steer the plane? Ha! Journalism these days. I bet they find his CG was too far aft and or was overloaded.
ssobol
Stefan Sobol 1
Shuttleworth Collection in the UK has an airplane that has remained certificated and airworthy for over 100 years! The last time the USAF bought B-52s was in the early 60's. Airplanes can fly pretty much for as long as you want to pay for the maintenance.
kurtseliger
kurt seliger 1
die Diskussionen sind unerträglich!
Denkt mal irgend jemand an die fast 100 Toten!
Schämt Euch.
themold
themold 1
A fine example of non-aviation journalist (?) writing about aviation accidents.
They know absolutely nothing about aviation and aircraft, so they use sensationalism
to sell the story. Wing Flaps to "steer" the plane? Well, most non aviation people would not even notice. I'm surprised that the author didn't try to put in something about pfitzer valves or propeller feathers.
ssobol
Stefan Sobol 0
Quite possible that the PNF retracted the flaps by mistake, not the gear. It has happened before.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
I don't think so in this case. If that had happened, the flaps would have still come up together. In this case one side either did not come all the way up, or did not come up at all and that is what caused the roll.
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
British European Trident crash because the "droops" (what I consider leading edge flaps) were retracted prematurely. Now in that case, they retracted normally, but the lift lost was too much, and the Trident pancaked into a field. Leading edge flaps provide significantly more lift than trailing edge do, so the reduction or loss of leading edge devices is more critical, especially if they retract asymmetrically. Just a point for consideration, don't know what is in play in this crash and whether the asymmetry was with the leading or trailing edge.
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
The Droops (as the Brits call them) retracted normally on the BA, but on the Russian plane they had a disagree meaning that one side was either trailing or did not come all the way up causing the bank.
richardorgill
Richard Orgill -1
Do any of your reporters have an Aviation background? Wings flaps that steer the A/C seriously?

Отдых в мире
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Just a little.. Roughly 12,775 Days... and your point is? Flying a little bit, working on them a lot. Do you know the difference between a Kruger Flap, a Droop, and Slats?
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
I hope his comment was directed at the article's author, Thomas Phippin.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Not sure... But it fits either way!...

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 7
And Happy New Year to you too, Wilbur Hartmann.

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 6
How do we know that was his name... That was his screen name, but we only know him as his alias. So yes it would be legal as that is the name he posted under... Like my real name is not sparkie... LOL, I earned that one.. UGH! don't ask, but it was electrical and yes the lights went out!
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
So you were the cause of the east coast blackout years back?...LOL
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
LOL... It wasn't that big of a Spark, but it look like a Camera Flash about a fraction of a second before it went dark!
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
From FA's Terms of Use: You acknowledge that any ideas, concepts, techniques, ("suggestions") for new or existing services submitted to FlightAware or discussed on the FlightAware Discussions forums are not confidential or proprietary. See:
http://flightaware.com/about/termsofuse

I interpret it that identities such as Gunner, swansdelight, joelwiley, Wilbur, and 6686L have been submitted to FA and are therefore not proprietary. By using the site you have implicitly granted permission to use the information you provided.

I believe you have had at least 4 accounts, two of which have been suspended. Is it within the rules to set up a new account to circumvent a suspension?

Gun Hay Fat Choi
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
well said joel.

Gong Xi Fa Cai
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure NO ONE else in the world has had any command time in a TU 54...if you want to be derogatory, at least get the aircraft name correct!

[This poster has been suspended.]

rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Since when did you become Friedriech Hollenzolleren ???

[This poster has been suspended.]

rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
ASK you 1 simple question based on YOUR answering a reply to a reply I did for another person's forum post, and you come back with this?

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